TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW ON RN DRIVE
Date: 23 April 2015
HOST:
Joining us now to respond to the results is Labor’s Climate Change
Spokesperson, Mark Butler. Welcome to the program. Four times the
emissions reduction of Labor’s carbon tax and at one ninetieth of the
price. What’s your response?
MARK BUTLER, SHADOW MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE:
Well, it’s complete rubbish of course. Labor was in the process of
putting in place an emissions trading scheme that would have a legal cap
on carbon pollution and involve an effective carbon price paid by the
big polluters that is about half of the carbon price that is now being
paid by taxpayers, not by big polluters, but by taxpayers, under the
Greg Hunt scheme. Today’s auctions have confirmed what experts have been
saying now for the best part of five years – that Tony Abbott’s Direct
Action policy will be a colossal waste of tax payers’ money and deliver
no meaningful reductions in carbon pollution.
HOST: At this
price, the Government says it’s well on track to achieve, or even
exceed, the 232 million tonnes of carbon abatement by 2020, Australia’s
carbon target. What do you think it will achieve?
BUTLER: Well,
of course the contracts that were released today – assuming they’re all
able to be discharged, some of them are a bit speculative – but assuming
all of them are discharged, are going to deliver pollution reductions
over 10 years. So the 47 million tonnes, at best, will be delivered over
the next ten years, so the middle parts of the next decade. But the big
problem with this, leaving aside the fact that tax payers are paying
for this and they’re paying a very, very high price indeed by global
standards, the biggest problem with this policy is that at the same time
some of these companies are getting money to do this, all of the big
polluters in the country are free to do whatever they want. Now we
received data only a few weeks ago that showed that carbon pollution has
already started to rise in the electricity sector because of Tony
Abbott’s attack on the Renewable Energy Target and just the pollution
rise we’ve seen over the last 12 months, if you spread it over the next
ten years, we’ve pretty much cancelled out the pollution reduction that
Greg Hunt paid for today.
HOST: My guest
on RN Drive is Labor’s climate change spokesperson, Mark Butler. And you
can text us. What do you think of the results of the Government’s
carbon auction? 0418226576. It has exceeded expectations though hasn’t
it Mark Butler?
BUTLER: No I
don’t think it has at all. The carbon price, as I said, is being is one
of the world’s highest carbon prices at $15. Treasury advised us in 2013
that the Emissions Trading Scheme that Labor has been arguing for would
have an effective carbon price of closer to $7 or $8 because businesses
would be able to access global markets. Leaving aside the problem that I
have with the principle that tax payers pay for this rather than big
polluters, tax payers are just not getting value for money. In addition
to a high price, also going through the list of companies that have
received funding today, you see a whole range of projects, like landfill
gas projects for example, that have already been operating for more
than 10 years so, there’s a very big question mark over whether tax
payers are simply paying money for companies to do things they were
already either doing or were intending to do anyway.
HOST: But, look
at the results. The results according to the figures and they’re not
just Government spin, they’re independent figures as well. At this price
the Government says it’s well on track to achieve or even exceed the
236 million tonnes of carbon abatement so –
BUTLER:
[interrupts] Well, they need a lesson in maths if they think that’s
right. As I said, this achieves 47 million tonnes over the next 10
years, at best. That assumes every contract is able to be performed. At
the same time, we’re getting data that shows that the electricity sector
is going to wipe out that figure just because of Tony Abbott’s attack
on the Renewable Energy Target. The Climate Change Authority released a
report earlier this week that suggested that over the 10 period that
Greg Hunt’s been talking about today, Australia should be reducing its
carbon pollution, that on the back of an envelope, I calculate at well
more than one billion tonnes. Well more than one billion tonnes. So
today’s results just confirm what everyone has said. This will be a
colossal waste of tax payers money that allows big polluters to push
pollution into our atmosphere –
HOST:
[interrupts] But your carbon price delivered reductions of 12 million
tonnes over two years and Greg Hunt says that’s a lower rate than what
the Coalition will achieve now.
BUTLER: Well,
the emissions trading scheme was never able to commence. The formal cap
on carbon pollution was never able to commence –
HOST: [interrupts] But it did commence.
BUTLER: No, no,
the carbon tax did, but the formal cap on carbon pollution that we
under Kevin Rudd’s prime ministership said would start last year, was
repealed by Tony Abbott. So there was never any legal control on the
pollution that the several hundred biggest polluters in Australia –
HOST: [interrupts] But I’m asking about your carbon tax.
BUTLER: So what
you saw in the first instead in the first year of our carbon price was
carbon pollution reducing in the national electricity market by about
seven per cent, just in the first year because of the explosion in
renewable energy, up by about 25 per cent in that first 12 months. What
you’ve seen since the election of Tony Abbott is a massive attack on the
renewable energy sector which means that their share of the electricity
market is in decline. And the share by big coal, by the coal-fired
generators which was starting to decline under Labor, is starting to
increase again. Which sees all of the work that was done by $45 million
of tonnes being bought by tax payers’ money today completely being wiped
out by changes in the electricity market.
HOST: On RN
Drive my guest is Mark Butler, Labor’s environment spokesperson and you
can text us on 0418226576 or tweet us at RN Drive. If you have a strong
view, or even a mediocre view, whatever kind of view you have on this
issue. Now the Environment Minister Greg Hunt says he thinks the
Emissions Reduction Fund could actually beat the five per cent target by
2020. And instead of 236 million tonnes, achieve a reduction of 500
million tonnes, that’s quite – that’s almost a doubling, it’s quite
extraordinary. Surely you’d applaud that wouldn’t you?
BUTLER: Well,
if wasn’t complete magic pudding mathematics you might. Today he’s
purchased maybe 47 million tonnes, using a quarter of the budget. That
47 million tonnes will have to be delivered, not by 2020, but over the
next 10 years so how he can possibly come up with a figure of 500
million tonnes, when he’s already spent a quarter of the money, is
utterly beyond me. I think it’s utterly beyond anyone who’s got a
rudimentary understanding of maths.
HOST: If he does achieve it, will you come back on the program and applaud him?
BUTLER: He’s
simply not going to because at the same time he’s doing this, as I said,
big polluters are increasing their pollution and completely negating
any impact that this auction has today. And as I said also, it appears
from looking at the list that Greg Hunt is giving tax payers money to a
whole long list of projects. Landfill gas projects for example being run
by one of the country’s biggest electricity providers that’s been
operated for more than 10 years.
HOST: But if he
does achieve the target that we’re trying to reach – five per cent
target by 2020 – you may not, this may not be the kind of regime you
prefer, but will you not concede that it’s having at least demonstrable
results?
BUTLER: I’m not
going to get into the sort of fairy tale hypotheticals that Greg Hunt
is trying to spin today. Even his own maths show that the sort of things
that he’s been talking about over the last 24 hours are utterly
improbable, utterly improbable and that’s why no other country on the
planet is using this approach to dealing with climate change. Every
other country with which we usually compare ourselves – our oldest
trading partners in Europe, places in North America, China, South Korea,
Japan – are all using an emissions trading scheme model that actually
places a legal discipline on the big polluters to start to reduce their
carbon pollution. That is the sort of thing that leads to the innovation
we need. We’re not seeing any innovation in this fund. Of course, a
number of good projects are in this fund and a number of them are
projects that were supported by Labor as well. But that doesn’t mean
that this is in any way a substantial climate change policy.
HOST: Mark
Butler, he’s also just told a media conference that this result is a
stunning repudiation of the carbon tax, that the average carbon tax
averaged out at more than $1300 a tonne. Does it produce a verdict that
the carbon tax is a failure?
BUTLER: Well of
course shortly before the 2013 election, Kevin Rudd, Chris Bowen and I
indicated that we would be terminating the carbon tax if elected and we
would be moving much more quickly to an emissions trading scheme than
was previously the plan so that by now an emissions trading scheme would
already have been in place for more than 12 months. So, talking about
the carbon tax really is talking about all that is long gone. In any
event though, he is completely wrong.
HOST: But given
that he’s comparing his current figures to the results under the carbon
tax, it’s not helpful for Labor, given the results of the carbon tax
were poor.
BUTLER: Well
his figures are wrong in any event. As I said, a carbon price that was
nowhere near the sorts of figures he’s talking about, was already,
alongside with our renewable energy policies, achieving a real change in
our electricity sector, real innovation. And that’s the sort of change
that we’re going to need if we’re going to have a meaningful response
to climate change. Not this sort of slush fund that Greg Hunt and Tony
Abbott are fixated on.
HOST: Greg Hunt
also says that the Labor system paid companies to emit and the auction
system paid companies to reduce emissions, do you agree with that
assessment?
BUTLER: Well of course I don’t. And I don’t think anyone else would either –
HOST: Well he obviously does.
BUTLER: Well,
he might. But Tony Abbott is paying tax payers’ money over to polluters,
as I said, in many cases it would appear from today’s auction to do
things they were doing anyway to reduce their carbon pollution, while at
the same time all of the biggest polluters in Australia, none of whom
were really on the list published today, are free to do whatever they
want, to put as much pollution as they want, into the atmosphere. That
is the problem with this approach that has no legal discipline on the
amount of carbon pollution being produced in Australia.
HOST: Mark Butler, thanks for coming on RN Drive and having this conversation with me.
BUTLER: Thanks Patricia.