THE HON TANYA PLIBERSEK MP
DEPUTY LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT
MEMBER FOR SYDNEY
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
RN BREAKFAST, ABC RADIO NATIONAL
THURSDAY, 28 AUGUST 2014
FRAN KELLY, PRESENTER: Tanya Plibersek is Labor’s Shadow
Minister for Foreign Affairs in the Parliament House studios. Tanya
Plibersek welcome back to Breakfast.
TANYA PLIBERSEK, DEPUTY OPPOSITION LEADER: Thanks Fran.
KELLY: According to the Minister David Johnson, Australian
forces are in “a high state of readiness”, that’s a quote. So it would
seem that once again Australian forces are inching closer to a military
commitment in Iraq. What is the Government considering? Have you been
briefed on this?
PLIBERSEK: Well, no, we have requested a briefing from the
Government that so far, that request hasn’t been granted so far. What I
would say Fran is that we have to be very, very cautious when we’re
talking about potential military involvement. Labor has been very
supportive of humanitarian assistance in northern Iraq. It is plain that
IS are on a genocidal campaign against ethnic minorities and religious
minorities in Iraq. In fact, against anyone who doesn’t agree with them.
That’s also true of Syria, the most recent United Nations reports about
what’s happening in Syria are also shocking. So we support humanitarian
assistance in Iraq. We also support greater humanitarian effort in
Syria. The United Nations has requested international assistance. They
launched a fund hoping to collect around $6 billion for humanitarian and
reconstruction efforts and I think the Abbott Government so far has
contributed $12 million to that. So we would say we can help more,
although of course the way we help in northern Iraq and the way we help
Syria would be quite different.
KELLY: I also guess the definition of humanitarian assistance
can be as broad or as narrow as you want it to be. The Defence Minister
has said if asked it would be “the right thing to do to assist the new
Iraqi government”. Is it as clear cut as that in your view, that if the
Iraqi Government does ask, it is the right thing for Australia to do to
participate more fully militarily?
PLIBERSEK: Well we’d have to get a lot more information about
what’s being requested of us. I think it’s very clear that if there is a
potential genocide, the international community has a responsibility to
protect. It does look as though there are potential genocides in
northern Iraq and certainly, a genocidal campaign both in Syria and
Iraq. But the type of any action that Australia might take – I think
that is something that we need to be very thoughtful and very calm
about. The war in 2003 was not just damaging for Australia, for the
United States, for all of the countries that were involved, I think it’s
been very damaging for Iraq as well. We need to be very cautious and
not do more harm than good.
KELLY: Talking of northern Iraq, yesterday on this program we
asked the Foreign Minister Julie Bishop about the Kurdish regional
government’s request for weapons and ammunition. She said at that time
there’d been no request for weapons but then clarified later that in
fact there had been to the Government. What’s Labor’s position on
Australia arming the Kurdish Peshmerga forces operating in the north
where IS is, as you say, on a genocidal campaign?
PLIBERSEK: Well I will be meeting with two Kurdish groups
later today, including the author of that letter to the Government. I
think it’s clear that the Peshmerga are the most effective fighting
force against IS in northern Iraq at the moment. If the Peshmerga have
made requests of the Australian Government, it really is up to the
Australian Government to tell us what they intend to do. I note that
some European countries, the United States and others are supporting the
Peshmerga with ammunition and so on. But it would have to again be
something that we need a lot more information about and we also need to
know the view of the Iraqi Government when it comes to arming a separate
military force to the Iraqi Army.
KELLY: The Greens have warned of mission creep, if there is to
be any additional military commitment in Iraq we need to be clear on
what the aim is. In your view is it to firm up the Iraqi Government, to
protect the state of Iraq against IS? Or is it to defeat the Islamic
State? Is that important – that we clarify that before anything more
happens?
PLIBERSEK: Well I think the first and most important thing we
need to be clear about is that there is a humanitarian disaster right
now. Thousands of people are dying, many hundreds of thousands have fled
their homes. That’s true in northern Iraq it’s also true in Syria and
as an international community we do have a responsibility to prevent
genocide and to provide humanitarian assistance. Anything more than that
has to be after a great deal of thought and consideration, the
international community with the government of Iraq. This is something
the people of Iraq need to do with international support.
KELLY: And what about debate? What about the role of the
Australian Parliament? The Prime Minister Tony Abbott made it clear
again this week that the Government will do what governments always have
done in the past – they’ll consult, they’ll consult with the
Opposition, but they will not seek parliamentary approval. Is that good
enough?
PLIBERSEK: Well, I mean I was here in 2003 and I don’t recall a great deal of useful consultation at that time-
KELLY: Well the Greens want more than that, they want a vote in the Parliament, so do others.
PLIBERSEK: I think it is important for us to be very clear as
Australians about what our goal is, what the objective would be, what
the specific task for Australian forces would be and what the end state
is, what do we hope to achieve and how do we then withdraw. None of
those questions were answered in 2003 and we can’t afford to make that
similar mistake again.
KELLY: It’s 22 minutes to eight on breakfast, our guest is the
Shadow Foreign Minister, Tanya Plibersek in our Parliament House
studios. Tanya Plibersek, the Government says its new counter-terror law
will be introduced soon. The Foreign Minister, Julie Bishop, clarified
yesterday there is no reverse onus of proof in the new law that had been
one of Labor’s complaints and complaints by others. Is that your
understanding of these laws?
PLIBERSEK: Well, Fran, it’s very difficult, what we’ve seen here-
KELLY: We’re talking about people leaving or coming back from places like Syria or Iraq.
PLIBERSEK: We’ve seen a press conference. I mean, these are extremely serious matters. We’ve seen no draft legislation-
KELLY: Have you been briefed on these laws?
PLIBERSEK: Well we’ve been briefed on the intention, after the
press conference was held, we got a briefing and in fact, I had two
briefings and in neither of those briefings were any of the questions
that we had about how these laws would operate satisfactorily answered.
So we’re waiting on draft legislation. Of course it’s important to help
our security agencies keep Australians safe, there is no one who would
disagree with that. And frankly, there is no one who would disagree with
the fact that there is heightened risk. We’ve already seen two
Australians leave on family members’ passports to go overseas to fight,
Khaled Sharrouf being the worst example of this. Of course we believe
our security agencies need support to keep Australians safe-
KELLY: They’re already getting it, it’s already working. I
mean, the front page of the Telegraph yesterday, the Prime Minister told
us yesterday someone was stopped at Sydney airport over the weekend.
Front page of the Tele screams “Enemy of the State”.
PLIBERSEK: I was also surprised-
KELLY: “Enemy at our gate”, sorry.
PLIBERSEK: I was also surprised to hear yesterday in Question
Time that some airports, some named airports, have extra resources and
some named airports don’t yet, which I thought was an extraordinary
thing to do, to say if you want to come into Australia or leave
Australia more easily, these are the airports that you use. But just
back on these laws, Fran, you can’t make serious decisions about
national security by press conference and so far we’ve had a press
conference and very little extra detail. We want to support our national
security agencies but it is very difficult without even draft
legislation before us, to comment on the specifics.
KELLY: And yesterday at the National Press Club, the ASIO
Director General, David Irvine, was asked whether there would be any, if
there was a danger if Australia escalated its military involvement in
Iraq that would make Australia more of a terror threat back home. He
said he didn’t see any link between that escalation and Australia being a
terror threat. Do you agree with that?
PLIBERSEK: Well, he’s a very experienced national security
leader and I am not going to contradict him. I think it’s important that
we listen to our most experienced, most expert advisers.
KELLY: Just finally, Foreign Minister Julie Bishop is in Bali
today. She will sign the new code of conduct with Indonesia on
intelligence. This flowed from those leaks from the Snowden files that
Australia had been tapping the phone of the wife of the Indonesian
President and others. This new code is called a set of behaviour
principles. Have you seen what’s being signed today and does it diminish
our capacity to gather vital intelligence?
PLIBERSEK: No, unfortunately we haven’t seen the text of the
agreement and it is disappointing that it’s taken around 300 days to
conclude this matter. I’m very pleased that it’s occurred before the end
of Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono’s term because he has been a good friend to
Australia and a good interlocker with Australia but it is, of course,
again – unable to comment without having seen what the Government’s-
KELLY: Is that good enough, our Government signing a code of
conduct that no one else in the Parliament has seen except presumably
the Foreign Minister, Prime Minister and a few-
PLIBERSEK: Well that’s a question for Julie Bishop, really.
KELLY: Tanya Plibersek, thank you very much for joining us.
PLIBERSEK: Thanks, Fran.
ENDS