Mark Butler MP. TRANSCRIPT OF MY INTERVIEW ON ADELAIDE ABC 891 BREAKFAST

Date: 24 June 2015

HOST: Mark Butler, the newly elected Federal President of the ALP, he’s the Opposition Environment and Climate Change spokesman and he’s the Member for Port Adelaide. Mark Butler, welcome to the program. 

MARK BUTLER, SHADOW MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE: Good morning. 

HOST: And congratulations, El Presidente. 

BUTLER: Thank you very much. 

HOST: Christopher Pyne, Liberal Member for Sturt, he’s just a humble Education Minister – 

BUTLER: Humble? I’ve heard Christopher called many things, but humble is not one of them. 

PYNE: I am humble and modest. A humble fixer. 

HOST: Nobody does humility and modesty quite like you Christopher Pyne, I think it’s fair to say. 

PYNE: I think my electorate knows me as humble and modest and that’s why they keep re-electing me. 

HOST: Do you have much to be humble and modest about? 

PYNE: Indeed I do have much to be humble and modest about, especially my sporting prowess. 

HOST: Chris Pyne, does the ABC need to eat humble pie over Q&A? The reaction has been quite hysterical by News Limited papers, including one which has taken an ISIS flag and put an ABC symbol on it. 

HOST: Can you list for us the things that you think were inappropriate about the Q&A broadcast? 

PYNE: I didn’t see the Q&A broadcast, but I have obviously caught up with what happened and I’ve spoken to Malcolm Turnbull about it and he is extremely concerned and I think the ABC made a very serious error of judgement. I can’t quote fathom why they would do that. What’s wrong with it is that they gave a person of very dubious character, if I can put it that way, a platform to promote ideas that are not helpful to the cohesion of our society and the ABC should be all about harmony and cohesion and it shouldn’t be about giving a platform to views that are inimical country’s interests. Secondly, and I think more importantly, knowing Q&A as well as I do because I’ve been on it 22 times, there is very little security arrangement for the audience and for the panel. Now, I’ve never felt in the least bit insecure in Q&A ever, even when the students unveiled their banner, I regarded that as all part of the cut and thrust of the political debate, I didn’t feel in the least bit personally insecure. But, to bring a person of his character into the studio audience, with the panel there as well, knowing that it was very unlikely they would have been checked for anything that could have done any damage to the audience, I think is a very serious matter. 

HOST: We are talking about somebody described – quite rightly – as a known extremist, Zaky Mallar, who, we’re told, he applied to be part of the audience, then submitted a question and went on further. But he is someone who has served a term, according to what we understand, he served a term of imprisonment for threatening to kill ASIO officers, and had been charged with threatening suicide attacks and preparing for terrorist attacks in that context, although had been acquitted. So, Chris Pyne, there’s two issues here: some people would say no matter extreme the views, we live in a free society, people can express those views or are you looking to limit those. You’re saying the major issue is the lack of security? 

PYNE: To me, it is. 

HOST: The physical threat to people? 

PYNE: I’m a free speech supporter and I don’t think the ABC should have given Zaky Mallar a platform and of course he was acquitted, according to Steve Ciobo the Parliament Secretary for Foreign Affairs, on a technicality. He is a person of interest to the Australian Federal Police, ASIO and security agencies in Australia because of his extremist views, which he hasn’t moderated. But, I also think that was a very dangerous and risky and potentially reckless thing for the ABC to bring him into contact with the audience and with the capacity for a live broadcast to make a political statement and to go even further than that, if he’d chosen to do so. I do think it was a mistake on the ABC’s part, I’m glad they’ve apologised and let’s hope that they learn from that mistake. 

HOST: Mark Butler? 

BUTLER: Look, I broadly agree with Christopher here. There’s been some commentary around, which has been to pile in on the ABC generally and pile in on the Q&A program generally which I think is a little over the top, but I think the ABC did make an error of judgement here. This fellow is a very serious fellow convicted of very serious offenses and I think Malcolm Turnbull’s explanation of his position to the Parliament yesterday was broadly the right one, which is the ABC should investigate the decision to allow this fellow on from two perspectives as Christopher says. Firstly, the security perspective. This is a live studio audience with a significant number of audience members, I’ve been on this program many times as well, and there is very little security precaution taken about the people who are allowed into that room. The second issue is a trickier issue and that is the one of editorial decisions taken by the ABC and I don’t think it is proper that Christopher or I seek to substitute our own views about what the ABC should do in this matter, but I think it is right that the ABC investigate the decision to allow this fellow on who has such extreme views and has a very serious record of, as you say, threatening to kill ASIO officers and a range of other serious things as well. I think broadly speaking Turnbull got it right here. He’s, as I understand it, given the ABC access to the Federal Police to think about the security precautions to be taken in an audience like this but also I think the Board should have a think through the editorial process in allowing people like that to have a platform like Q&A. 

HOST: If we cut to the chase, most of us would think that Zaky Mallar is a lunatic. But, should we also be careful when a Prime Minister says to the media ‘whose side are you on? 

BUTLER: Well, I don’t think that’s helped the debate at all. I think Turnbull’s contribution in the Parliament yesterday was measured, I think it reflected the seriousness of what happened on Monday night without seeking to pile in on the ABC in the way in which the Prime Minister unfortunately has and a number of other people, particularly in News Corp newspapers, have this morning. I don’t want to understate the seriousness of what happened, but I think to pile in on the ABC as a general proposition and say, ‘you’re either with us or against us’, which is effectively what the PM has said, is not helpful. I think what Turnbull has done is essentially the right path. 

[Calls from the public] 

HOST: Christopher Pyne, do you think that Q&A is a ‘lefty lynch mob’ as described by the Prime Minister? 

PYNE: Well, firstly I didn’t from a Phoebe an answer, although she did have a good run, an answer on whether she went through a scanner to determine whether there was any metal in her experience. I don’t think that happened, I’ve been there many times, and I’ve never seen a scanner at the ABC like we have at the airports for example, which is a pretty comprehensive way of discovering if someone’s concealing a weapon. So I think the security does need to be changed, and I’m pleased the AFP’s working with the ABC on that. There’s no doubt at all, I go on Q&A, I enjoy Q&A, I think it’s great opportunity to get the Liberal Party’s message out to a million viewers, but there’s no doubt that it is slanted in a particular political view. You only need to look at the make-up of each of the panels to realise that. I mean anybody who pretends that the panel is a balanced panel of left and right and centre thinkers is kidding themselves. There’s always one Liberal, or Conservative, and then there are four – and arguably with Tony Jones, five – from the centre-left. That’s just the way it is. We could choose not to go on it, but I think that’s madness because I want the public to hear the Coalition’s message because I think it’s the right message. 

HOST: Before we go, Mark Butler, there are reports today that your leader, Bill Shorten, he’s stopping short of committing Labor at the next election to fund all of the Gonski money and all of the health money that you’ve been bagging Tony Abbott for ripping out for the last two years. Now, will Labor reinstate all of the money that you’ve said Abbott has taken out on health and education. 

BUTLER: Well, we’ve been rightly bagging him. The NSW Liberal Treasurer put the lie to Christopher’s protestations that there’s been no cuts to school funding – 

PYNE: [interrupts] Why don’t you answer the question? 

BUTLER: No cuts to school funding, apparently. Well the NSW Liberal Treasurer says otherwise. What Bill Shorten said yesterday I think is entirely unremarkable. What he said is, I think most people in Australia think, which is we will be better on schools and hospitals funding than the Liberal Party – 

HOST: [interrupts] You can do that by promising a dollar more though can’t you? 

BUTLER: The Federation Green Paper this week has just reinforced the views the Government has about these things. But – 

HOST: But, you’re not locking into the Government’s funding though? 

PYNE: That’s complete hypocrisy Mark and you know it. 

BUTLER: But of course we haven’t released our costings for the election yet. That is a process that we are going through while the Government keeps wrecking the Budget every single year, Joe Hockey doubled the deficit this year against last year’s Budget papers. So, we’re going through an orderly process to work out what our costings will be for the next election, but I think everyone has confidence, given the effort we’ve put into this area that we have enormous commitment to a needs-based funding process in schools that will deliver an appropriate school resource standard. 

PYNE: As the new President of the ALP you’re going to have to get much better at answering the question when you’re not really. 

BUTLER: I answered the question exactly as any Opposition would. We are going through a proper process. 

PYNE: Every listener knows the answer you just gave could have been summed up with two letters: no. N-o, no. You’re not going to provide that funding because you know you haven’t got it, the taxpayer doesn’t have it and you know that funding is going up every year and you will support the Government’s policy at the next election.

HOST: Christopher Pyne, can you continue? No.