Extract from The Guardian
Prime minister says his government is determined to stop the boats
‘by hook or by crook’ and border protection officials have been
‘incredibly creative’
Tony Abbott
has refused to rule out Australian officials paying people smugglers to
turn back asylum-seeker vessels, saying the government was determined
to “stop the boats by hook or by crook”.
In comments likely to alarm the Indonesian government, the Australian prime minister said his government would do “whatever we need to do” to stop such boats and that border protection officials had been “incredibly creative” in coming up with strategies.
Human rights lawyers immediately expressed shock at the “astonishing” comments, saying they showed the government was prepared to do whatever it takes with “no moral compass and no moral limit”.
The Greens, too, argued such payments would be akin to government participation in people trafficking, while Labor said they would be an incentive for smugglers to encounter Australian naval vessels.
Indonesia confirmed on Thursday that it was investigating allegations that an Australian official paid the captain and crew of an intercepted boat carrying about 65 asylum seekers about US$30,000 ($39,000) to turn back to Indonesia in late May.
Indonesia’s foreign affairs ministry spokesman, Arrmanatha Nasir, told the Guardian the development, if proven, would be “very concerning”.
In an interview on Friday, Abbott refused to confirm or deny the allegations, and also avoided committing the Australian government to launching its own investigation.
“What we are doing is saving life at sea. We are defending our national sovereignty, we are protecting our country from the evil trade of people smuggling, and by hook or by crook we will do what is necessary to keep our country safe and to keep this evil trade stopped,” he told 3AW, while declining to comment on operational details.
When given the opportunity to express a general opinion on whether it would be acceptable to pay people smugglers, Abbott said he would not talk about hypotheticals and “the important thing is that we stop the boats”.
Pressed on whether the government would do “whatever it takes”, Abbott replied: “Consistent with being a humane and decent country, absolutely.”
The prominent refugee lawyer Julian Burnside said: “If he has been making payments to people he regards as the scum of the earth then he is a hypocrite.”
Another refugee lawyer, David Manne, said the government “must confirm, deny or investigate whether it funded what it describes as the ‘evil trade of people smuggling’ to turn back asylum seekers”.
Manne said “whatever it takes” was an unacceptable position for a country that had signed up to the refugees convention to take.
“For our government at the highest levels to suggest that when it comes to asylum seekers at sea there is no moral compass and no moral limit is not only astonishing and appalling but completely unacceptable,” he said.
The Greens senator Sarah Hanson-Young said the public had “a right to know if the Abbott government has participated in people trafficking or not”.
“The prime minister has all but admitted that the government is prepared to do anything out on the high seas, even it seems if that means breaking the law or participating in people trafficking,” she said.
“Payments to individuals to turn a boat around and take asylum seekers to Indonesia may be highly illegal. The trafficking of people against their will is a serious crime. The Australian government must give a full and accurate account of what has occurred.”
Labor’s immigration spokesman, Richard Marles, said most Australians would be amazed if the government was creating “a situation where there is an encouragement for people smugglers to encounter Australian navy vessels so they can get an Australian taxpayer-funded cheque”.
Marles said this could represent a “pull factor” for asylum seeker boats. “We need to hear some clarity from this government today about whether that is a practice they are engaging in,” he said.
At a subsequent media conference in Melbourne, Abbott again refused to rule out the practice occurring and defended his unwillingness to answer direct questions.
“I’m perfectly aware of the import of your question, and what we have done, very firmly for all sorts of good reasons, since September 2013, is not comment on operational matters because every time we comment on operational matters we give information to our enemies,” he said.
“We are not in the business of giving information to people smugglers because if we talk about our tactics, they’ll change their tactics.”
The claims about the payments were aired in reports by Radio New Zealand and Fairfax Media this week.
The Indonesian police chief on Rote, Hidayat, was quoted by Fairfax as saying the cash “was in $100 bank notes” and wrapped in six black plastic bags.
The migrants have reportedly supported the claims, but the Guardian has been unable to verify the allegations independently.
The Australian immigration minister, Peter Dutton, said on Thursday the claims had not been substantiated, but Abbott appeared to go out of his way to avoid making any denial. The prime minister also repeatedly emphasised the government considered the most important goal to be to stop the boats.
Interviewer Neil Mitchell: “These allegations that Australia paid people smugglers to turn back the boats – did it happen or not?”
Tony Abbott: “Well, Neil, we don’t comment on operational matters but we are determined to ensure that illegal boats don’t get to Australia and we will do whatever is reasonably necessary to protect our country from people smuggling and from the effect of this evil and damaging trade that cost lives.”
Mitchell: “But surely we wouldn’t pay people smugglers, they’re criminals?”
Abbott: Well, what we do is we stop the boats by hook or by crook, because that’s what we’ve got to do and that’s what we’ve successfully done and I just don’t want to go into the details of how it’s done because, like a lot of things that law enforcement agencies have to do, it’s necessary, it’s difficult, and at times I suppose it’s dangerous work but we do it and we’ve stopped the boats, Neil.”
Mitchell: “Let me put it another way: theoretically, hypothetically, would you find it acceptable to pay people smugglers?”
Abbott: “Look, Neil, I’m just not going to get into hypotheticals. The important thing is that we stop the boats.”
Mitchell: “But, prime minister, not if we’re paying criminals. I mean, these people have been described as evil, as scum of the earth, and if we’re paying them, bribing them, to turn back the boats, I mean that’s almost a crime.”
Abbott: “Well Neil, the important thing is to stop the boats, that’s the important thing, and I think the Australian people are extremely pleased that that’s what happened. Of course, by stopping the boats we’ve stopped the deaths. By stopping the boats we’ve certainly improved our relationship with Indonesia. So stopping the boats is all good, it is all good …”
Mitchell: “I don’t know about the relationship with Indonesia. They’re saying today they’re shocked by the allegations we paid people smugglers. Are we at least investigating whether it happened?”
Abbott: “Neil, I want to say to you and your listeners that I am proud of the work that our border protection agencies have done. I really am proud of the work that they’ve done and they’ve been incredibly creative in coming up with a whole range of strategies to break this evil trade, which as you know flourished under the former government and led to the deaths of well over 1,000 people, so look …”
Mitchell: “Will we investigate whether it happened?”
Abbott: “As I said, by hook or by crook we are going to stop the trade, we have stopped the trade, and we will do what we have to do to ensure that it stays stopped.”
Mitchell: “Will the Australian government investigate whether it happened?”
Abbott: “The short answer is the Australian government will do whatever we need to do to keep this evil trade stopped.”
Mitchell: “Including paying people smugglers?”
Abbott: “We will do whatever we need to do to keep this trade stopped because that’s what the public expects. Frankly, that is the right and decent and compassionate and humane thing to do and I don’t make excuses and I don’t offer apologies for stopping the boats because frankly it is absolutely imperative, for reasons of our national policy, and it’s absolutely imperative for reasons of saving lives at sea.”
Mitchell: “The Indonesian government is investigating whether it happened. Will the Australian government investigate whether it happened?”
Abbott: “Well, we have very good relations with the Indonesian government and we’ve got very good cooperation with the Indonesian government when it comes to stopping people smuggling because, amongst other things, we haven’t offered the gratuitous insult to Indonesia that our predecessors did by, amongst other things, stopping the live cattle trade in panic at a television program.”
Mitchell: “Prime Minister, will the Australian government investigate whether it happened?”
Abbott: “Um, Neil, what we are doing is saving life at sea. We are defending our national sovereignty, we are protecting our country from the evil trade of people smuggling and by hook or by crook we will do what is necessary to keep our country safe and to keep this evil trade stopped.”
Mitchell: “With respect, Prime Minister, that’s not an answer. Will the Australian government …”
Abbott: “It’s a very good answer, Neil; it’s a very good answer because with equal respect to you, Neil, there are all sorts of things that our security agencies do that they need to do to protect our country and many of those things just should never be discussed in public. Operational matters, when it comes to national security, are never discussed in public and that’s the way it should be. What I am charged with is the protection of our country and I’m pleased to say that when it comes to border protection this government, unlike its predecessor, has a really outstanding record.”
Mitchell: “OK, so whatever it takes?”
Abbott: “Consistent with being a humane and decent country, absolutely.”
In comments likely to alarm the Indonesian government, the Australian prime minister said his government would do “whatever we need to do” to stop such boats and that border protection officials had been “incredibly creative” in coming up with strategies.
Human rights lawyers immediately expressed shock at the “astonishing” comments, saying they showed the government was prepared to do whatever it takes with “no moral compass and no moral limit”.
The Greens, too, argued such payments would be akin to government participation in people trafficking, while Labor said they would be an incentive for smugglers to encounter Australian naval vessels.
Indonesia confirmed on Thursday that it was investigating allegations that an Australian official paid the captain and crew of an intercepted boat carrying about 65 asylum seekers about US$30,000 ($39,000) to turn back to Indonesia in late May.
Indonesia’s foreign affairs ministry spokesman, Arrmanatha Nasir, told the Guardian the development, if proven, would be “very concerning”.
In an interview on Friday, Abbott refused to confirm or deny the allegations, and also avoided committing the Australian government to launching its own investigation.
“What we are doing is saving life at sea. We are defending our national sovereignty, we are protecting our country from the evil trade of people smuggling, and by hook or by crook we will do what is necessary to keep our country safe and to keep this evil trade stopped,” he told 3AW, while declining to comment on operational details.
When given the opportunity to express a general opinion on whether it would be acceptable to pay people smugglers, Abbott said he would not talk about hypotheticals and “the important thing is that we stop the boats”.
Pressed on whether the government would do “whatever it takes”, Abbott replied: “Consistent with being a humane and decent country, absolutely.”
The prominent refugee lawyer Julian Burnside said: “If he has been making payments to people he regards as the scum of the earth then he is a hypocrite.”
Another refugee lawyer, David Manne, said the government “must confirm, deny or investigate whether it funded what it describes as the ‘evil trade of people smuggling’ to turn back asylum seekers”.
Manne said “whatever it takes” was an unacceptable position for a country that had signed up to the refugees convention to take.
“For our government at the highest levels to suggest that when it comes to asylum seekers at sea there is no moral compass and no moral limit is not only astonishing and appalling but completely unacceptable,” he said.
The Greens senator Sarah Hanson-Young said the public had “a right to know if the Abbott government has participated in people trafficking or not”.
“The prime minister has all but admitted that the government is prepared to do anything out on the high seas, even it seems if that means breaking the law or participating in people trafficking,” she said.
“Payments to individuals to turn a boat around and take asylum seekers to Indonesia may be highly illegal. The trafficking of people against their will is a serious crime. The Australian government must give a full and accurate account of what has occurred.”
Labor’s immigration spokesman, Richard Marles, said most Australians would be amazed if the government was creating “a situation where there is an encouragement for people smugglers to encounter Australian navy vessels so they can get an Australian taxpayer-funded cheque”.
Marles said this could represent a “pull factor” for asylum seeker boats. “We need to hear some clarity from this government today about whether that is a practice they are engaging in,” he said.
At a subsequent media conference in Melbourne, Abbott again refused to rule out the practice occurring and defended his unwillingness to answer direct questions.
“I’m perfectly aware of the import of your question, and what we have done, very firmly for all sorts of good reasons, since September 2013, is not comment on operational matters because every time we comment on operational matters we give information to our enemies,” he said.
“We are not in the business of giving information to people smugglers because if we talk about our tactics, they’ll change their tactics.”
The claims about the payments were aired in reports by Radio New Zealand and Fairfax Media this week.
The Indonesian police chief on Rote, Hidayat, was quoted by Fairfax as saying the cash “was in $100 bank notes” and wrapped in six black plastic bags.
The migrants have reportedly supported the claims, but the Guardian has been unable to verify the allegations independently.
The Australian immigration minister, Peter Dutton, said on Thursday the claims had not been substantiated, but Abbott appeared to go out of his way to avoid making any denial. The prime minister also repeatedly emphasised the government considered the most important goal to be to stop the boats.
The full exchange on radio 3AW
Interviewer Neil Mitchell: “These allegations that Australia paid people smugglers to turn back the boats – did it happen or not?”
Tony Abbott: “Well, Neil, we don’t comment on operational matters but we are determined to ensure that illegal boats don’t get to Australia and we will do whatever is reasonably necessary to protect our country from people smuggling and from the effect of this evil and damaging trade that cost lives.”
Mitchell: “But surely we wouldn’t pay people smugglers, they’re criminals?”
Abbott: Well, what we do is we stop the boats by hook or by crook, because that’s what we’ve got to do and that’s what we’ve successfully done and I just don’t want to go into the details of how it’s done because, like a lot of things that law enforcement agencies have to do, it’s necessary, it’s difficult, and at times I suppose it’s dangerous work but we do it and we’ve stopped the boats, Neil.”
Mitchell: “Let me put it another way: theoretically, hypothetically, would you find it acceptable to pay people smugglers?”
Abbott: “Look, Neil, I’m just not going to get into hypotheticals. The important thing is that we stop the boats.”
Mitchell: “But, prime minister, not if we’re paying criminals. I mean, these people have been described as evil, as scum of the earth, and if we’re paying them, bribing them, to turn back the boats, I mean that’s almost a crime.”
Abbott: “Well Neil, the important thing is to stop the boats, that’s the important thing, and I think the Australian people are extremely pleased that that’s what happened. Of course, by stopping the boats we’ve stopped the deaths. By stopping the boats we’ve certainly improved our relationship with Indonesia. So stopping the boats is all good, it is all good …”
Mitchell: “I don’t know about the relationship with Indonesia. They’re saying today they’re shocked by the allegations we paid people smugglers. Are we at least investigating whether it happened?”
Abbott: “Neil, I want to say to you and your listeners that I am proud of the work that our border protection agencies have done. I really am proud of the work that they’ve done and they’ve been incredibly creative in coming up with a whole range of strategies to break this evil trade, which as you know flourished under the former government and led to the deaths of well over 1,000 people, so look …”
Mitchell: “Will we investigate whether it happened?”
Abbott: “As I said, by hook or by crook we are going to stop the trade, we have stopped the trade, and we will do what we have to do to ensure that it stays stopped.”
Mitchell: “Will the Australian government investigate whether it happened?”
Abbott: “The short answer is the Australian government will do whatever we need to do to keep this evil trade stopped.”
Mitchell: “Including paying people smugglers?”
Abbott: “We will do whatever we need to do to keep this trade stopped because that’s what the public expects. Frankly, that is the right and decent and compassionate and humane thing to do and I don’t make excuses and I don’t offer apologies for stopping the boats because frankly it is absolutely imperative, for reasons of our national policy, and it’s absolutely imperative for reasons of saving lives at sea.”
Mitchell: “The Indonesian government is investigating whether it happened. Will the Australian government investigate whether it happened?”
Abbott: “Well, we have very good relations with the Indonesian government and we’ve got very good cooperation with the Indonesian government when it comes to stopping people smuggling because, amongst other things, we haven’t offered the gratuitous insult to Indonesia that our predecessors did by, amongst other things, stopping the live cattle trade in panic at a television program.”
Mitchell: “Prime Minister, will the Australian government investigate whether it happened?”
Abbott: “Um, Neil, what we are doing is saving life at sea. We are defending our national sovereignty, we are protecting our country from the evil trade of people smuggling and by hook or by crook we will do what is necessary to keep our country safe and to keep this evil trade stopped.”
Mitchell: “With respect, Prime Minister, that’s not an answer. Will the Australian government …”
Abbott: “It’s a very good answer, Neil; it’s a very good answer because with equal respect to you, Neil, there are all sorts of things that our security agencies do that they need to do to protect our country and many of those things just should never be discussed in public. Operational matters, when it comes to national security, are never discussed in public and that’s the way it should be. What I am charged with is the protection of our country and I’m pleased to say that when it comes to border protection this government, unlike its predecessor, has a really outstanding record.”
Mitchell: “OK, so whatever it takes?”
Abbott: “Consistent with being a humane and decent country, absolutely.”
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