*THE
WORKER*
BRISBANE, JULY 27, 1895.
Michael
Davitt, M.P.
Interview
by a “Worker” representative
His
Views on Labour and Social-Economic Questions.
Pauperism
in Ireland.
“ Pauperism in Ireland is greater now than it was
fifty years ago, when the population was double what it is at
present. That is, it is greater in proportion to population. The cure
for this is the same as that for the solution of the unemployed
question in England – make the land accessible to Labour.”
“The
Land of Every Country Should be Owned by the State.”
“The land legislation of the last fifteen years in
Ireland has indirectly improved the condition of the agricultural
labourer by giving security of tenure to the farmer and by reducing
his rents, thereby enabling him to some little extent to add to the
wages of his labourers. But the measure which has conferred the
greatest benefit upon the agricultural labourers of Ireland is that
which the Irish party succeeded in passing through the Imperial
Parliament in 1883 namely, the Irish Agricultural Labourers' Dwellers
Act. Under this measure we have been able to erect so far over 12000
healthy cottages in the South of Ireland. The cottages each contain
four rooms and attached thereto is at least half an acre of land as a
garden plot. These dwellings have been erected by the local sanitary
authority, otherwise the Poor Law Union, on the security of the
rates. The rent charged to each occupying labourer averages only one
shilling per week, the object being not to charge a profit rent but
simply a rent that will pay the interest upon the public money that
has been borrowed for the erection of the dwelling. The houses and
plots of land belong not to the occupant but to the community –
that is, to the local Board of Guardians – because we recognise in
Ireland that if the tenant was allowed to own his house and land he
would very soon have it mortgaged to the local bank or 'gombeen man.'
Irish land legislation has not materially improved the condition of
the mechanics and artisans in the cities and towns, but that is
mainly owing to the fact that our work is not nearly over. By the
time we have carried out the original programme of the Land League
and obtained the land for the people then the competition which now
goes on in the labour markets of the cities and towns in Ireland will
largely cease as employment will be found on the soil for the surplus
labour that is now thrown upon these centres of skilled industry in
the large cities of Ireland.“ I am most strongly opposed to the principle of
freehold in land. I believe that the land of every country should be
owned by the State, and not on any condition whatever alienated. I
believe that the principle of freehold in land is at the bottom of
the industrial and social anarchy that obtains in Great Britain and
Ireland to-day. And I am convinced that the trend of land legislation
in the United Kingdom will be in the direction of State leasehold and
not in that of individual freehold. How this will be brought about,
whether through land nationalisation or the ownership of land by
municipalities, or through the single tax, as Henry George advocates,
is a question for the future. In England there is a strong tendency
now to proceed by way of taxing land values on the one hand and of
enabling municipalities, county councils, and district councils to
acquire land for the purpose of leasing it out to Labourers, farmers,
and others on the other hand.
Balfour's
Efforts to Rescue the Irish landlords.
“I don't think it will be necessary to have a law
passed to prevent the aggregation of large estates because the
tendency of all economic movements is now against large estates. The
large estates in Great Britain and Ireland are not, I am happy to
say, paying from an agricultural point of view, thanks again to your
Australian and American competition in food stuffs. It is being
discovered every day that a system of small farms like that which
obtains in France and Belgium is best for the industrial community;
that it gives more labour and produces more food that the large
estate system.
Belfour's object is not to relieve Irish agricultural
industry, but to rescue the Irish landlords from the inevitable
consequences of Radical land reform on the one hand and the effects
of foreign competition in food stuffs on the other. These two
movements combined have practically annihilated the landlord's
interest in the land of Ireland. If that interest could be disposed
of in the open market to-morrow at the current price for land it
would not bring half the amount which the landowners of Ireland owe
to the banks and money-lenders of England, therefore Mr. Balfour, as
head of the Landlord Party in Great Britain and Ireland, is anxious,
very anxious, to loan State money at low interest to the Irish farmer
in order thereby to enable the Irish landlord to walk off with 70 per
cent more of a price for his depreciated property than it would bring
in an open market. I am convinced that opinion in the old country
will be strongly against the extension of this system of legal fraud
in Ireland.”
A Sound
Principle.
I am not economically acquainted with the social
condition of all other countries, but speaking for myself I am of
opinion that the principle for which we are contending in Ireland,
namely, the ownership of the land of a country by the people, or the
State, of a country, is a sound one, and that it would be to the
direct advantage of every industrial community with which I have any
acquaintance to adopt the principle of the land for the people.”
Home
Interest in Australian Labour matters.
“I regret to say not as much interest is taken at home
in Australian Labour matters as there ought to be. But it is known
that your Labour Parties in the Australian colonies are more united
than ours, and that they are carrying out a wiser policy by insisting
upon unity in essentials and by endeavouring to get through
legislative means the gradual endorsement of the Labour programme. I
think that in proportion to industrial population your Labour
organisations and parties are numerically stronger than ours in Great
Britain. I would attribute this difference to the fact that it is
much easier to organise workers where population is small than in
places like Great Britain, where we have from twenty to twenty-five
millions of wage-earners.”
An Economic
Poser.
“Taking into account the costiness of machinery used
in modern production, Mr. Davitt, do you consider there is difference
between a system of landlordism that rack-rents the agriculturist and
the Capitalism which take advantage of the unemployed to reduce
wages?”
“Now this is a poser,” said our illustrious friend
with a twinkle in his eye. “I will see what I can do with it.
Economically there may be little or no difference between the effects
upon Labour and land monopoly on the one hand and a practical
monopoly of labour saving machinery on the other. For my part I
believe it is wise in Labour movements to proceed upon the lines of
least resistance and in such a struggle as the workers have to
maintain against overwhelming odds in almost every civilised country
it will be wise and prudent to attack the evil of land monopoly first
and seek through that means a possible remedy for the social evils
now affecting the industrial classes. The practical nationalising of
land is a proposal which alarms very few, because I think the
tendency of all Social reform lies in that direction in most English
speaking countries while on the other hand the proposal to
nationalise the means of production, distribution and exchange is so
vast, and, I may say, so new, that comparatively few people outside
of Socialist bodies can comprehend how it can possibly be carried
out. I have not yet seen any plan that gives me a hope that this
stupendous proposal is likely to be practically in the present age.
Theoretically, every fair-minded man will admit that if this gigantic
revolution could be achieved it would bring us near an ideal society
in which Labour would have as its reward the full value of all it
would produce. But, as in small reforms so in large ones, we must be
content to move slowly and to recognise that what is theoretically
easy of comprehension is frequently most difficult, if not dangerous,
to be carried into effect. I think, myself, that this dream of
Socialism will remain for this generation but a dream; that labour
and social reform movements will continue to go on the lines of
progressive Radicalism, and that in this way we will see much
advantageous legislation carried out for the working classes
throughout the civilised world.”
The interview was becoming more intensely interesting,
and we were won't to pursue the subject further, but our time had
expired and our limited space was exhausted. A knock at the door,
too, reminded us that the next in turn wanted to come in, so for the
present we had to say “adieu” to the newly-elected member for
both East Kerry and Mayo.
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