Podcast from PBS News Hour
Dec 4, 2020 6:33 PM EST
Syndicated columnist Mark Shields and New York Times columnist David Brooks join Judy Woodruff to discuss the week in politics, including the Biden team’s transition to the White House and the impact of Trump’s election fraud claims.
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Judy Woodruff:
And now it's time for the analysis of Shields and Brooks. That is syndicated columnist Mark Shields, and New York Times columnist David Brooks.
Hello to both of you.
I want to pick up with what we were hearing, Mark, from Congressman Riggleman of Virginia, talking about putting party over country. That was something he wasn't comfortable with, and talking about conspiracy theories, all of this stemming from President Trump insisting that he's won the election, that the election was completely riddled with fraud.
We're now hearing a number of Republicans calling for other Republicans to call the president out. How much damage is being done by what is going on right now, Mark?
Mark Shields:
I can't calculate it, Judy, in concrete terms, other than to say it's dangerous.
I mean, America has been the envy of the world. It's been an example to bring millions of people to our shores, a free and open democracy, where every voice is heard. And to have the elected leader of that nation charge that it is not that, that it's corrupt, that it's criminal, is damaging beyond my calculation.
And I just — I think — I hope it's reparable, but we will — it will be a while before we find out just how much damage has been done.
Judy Woodruff:
David, how deep is the damage that's being done?
David Brooks:
Well, 77 percent of Republicans or Trump backers say the election was stolen by fraud, according to a Monmouth poll. A lot of those same people don't believe in manmade climate change. A lot of those same people don't believe that masks can save your life.
So, there's a section of a country that's become detached from reality and, under Trump paranoia, has become a style, a resurgent style.
I wrote a column about this a week ago. And I tried to theorize that this derives out of a sense of menace and threat, that people feel existentially unsafe, and so they grasp for conspiracy theories, because it makes them feel powerful, that they see the truth. It makes them feel agency. They can expose the evil cabals.
And I think there's some truth to that, that people — a lot of people just feel very scared economically, socially, racially. And out of that fear comes paranoia.
But I got a lot of e-mails from people. Like, I got one from a guy in Palo Alto. And he said, the neurosurgeon down my block believes all this stuff. So, where's his anxiety? And I'd say, I don't know the answer to that question.
But there is a lot of anxiety. There's a lot of fear, and out of that has arisen an entire industry of paranoia-mongering. The Newsmax, the far right-wing media TV station, their viewership has gone up 20 times since the election. So, that paranoia is pretty deep and pretty widespread right now.
Judy Woodruff:
Mark, we are — as a news organization, the "NewsHour" is trying to understand this. I know other news organizations are as well.
We want to understand the origin of this and how deep it goes and how long-lasting. How much does it matter that we try to tackle this right now? Is it — I guess what I'm trying to understand, is this a flight of fancy, that we're just living through a brief period, and we're going to wake up in a few weeks or months, and we're going to be past it, or is this with us for a long time?
Mark Shields:
Well, no, I mean, I think David put his finger on it, as he does regularly.
This also has a commercial aspect to it. I mean, there is a profit in upping your viewership if you're spinning paranoid theories to your listeners and explaining that the other side — you never argue on the merits, Judy. What it comes down to is, the other side is evil.
I mean, that is the first thing I learned when I came to Washington, that you don't question the motives of somebody on the other side, that they love their country and their children as much as you do. And they may be mistaken, they may be ill-informed, they may be illogical, but you don't start off with, they're evil.
Well, that is — that's where these arguments begin, that it's a sinister, criminal collusion all out to get the American way, to destroy the American way. It is anything we can do to rebut it.
And one hopes that the new administration, with a fresh start, will be a start in that direction. And the fact that the president — that his predecessor is now receding in the rearview mirror, inevitably, I think, has to be helpful.
Judy Woodruff:
And, David, I guess my question is, is his predecessor disappearing in the rearview mirror? He's raised over $200 million and counting since the Election Day for his legal defense fund.
But we are now learning that money, most of that money can go toward his new political venture, whatever it may be. President Trump may be here for a long time to come.
David Brooks:
He's certainly talking like he will run again in 2024.
And Josh Hawley, the senator from Missouri, said that, if Trump runs again, he would endorse him and expect him to win. And he might. He might win the nomination again. So, I don't think we have seen — maybe not seen the last of him.
The problem with all the paranoia and the conspiracy theory is, you can't talk people out of it. The psychological research is super clear on this, that if you try to fact-check people when they have incorrect facts, you only entrench their belief, that you can't talk people out of an emotional state.
And so I think the two things that we can do is try to have contact, more contact between, frankly, those of us in the expert class, who tend to live in blue America, in the metro areas, and people in the rural country.
COVID doesn't allow that. But traveling around the country is a good way to alleviate a lot of the barriers between us. And, second, somehow, life has to become more secure for a lot of people. And I'm hoping the administration, the new administration, will pass legislation that makes life economically more secure, so that sense of existential anxiety goes away.
Judy Woodruff:
Well, we can certainly hope not only the economy gets better, that we will all be able to travel more, get around, see our fellow Americans, family and friends in the not-too-distant future.
But, Mark, let's talk about Joe Biden, the president-elect. Since the last time I saw the two of you, two weeks ago, before Thanksgiving, he's named more of the senior members of his team, his secretary of state, Tony Blinken, his secretary of the Treasury, Janet Yellen, a number of others.
What do you make of the team so far?
Mark Shields:
Well, I would say, the reviews, Judy, that are in are quite positive.
I mean, they reflect Joe Biden. They're experienced. They believe in public service. They're people whom he knows, again, unlike his unnamed predecessor, who chose a secretary of state because he had a very active passport and had traveled a lot and looked like a secretary of state. He's choosing somebody with whom he's worked for close to a generation, experienced people, people who believe in public service.
And I guess dully competent would be the unflattering observation. But I'm impressed. And you mentioned a Janet Yellen. I think that is a 10 strike. I mean, to have the chairman of the — former chairman of the Fed, former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers of her stature and, figuratively speaking, and just her values as secretary of the Treasury, I think is just awfully important, especially with Joe Biden, who has great experience in foreign policy and — but not deep in financial matters.
So, I'm encouraged by them.
Judy Woodruff:
David, what's your take on these folks Joe Biden is naming?
David Brooks:
Yes, I'm super encouraged too.
It's Biden being Biden. It's Biden people — picking people he's comfortable with, people he knows, and people who you could wake up in the middle of night, and they could do the job. Janet Yellen is super well-prepared to be Treasury secretary, Jake Sullivan, a rising young star in the policy world. Jared Bernstein has been on this program many times in the economic world.
Neera Tanden will be our flashiest OMB director in history, but someone who's been around and who just knows the job. And so you can rest assured that these are people who have experience and often served in the job right below them in the Obama administration. So, we can expect fewer own goals under them.
Judy Woodruff:
Well, we're seeing, Mark, a number of women put into — or nominated for prominent roles, powerful roles in the new administration.
But there's still some interest groups out there saying there's not enough diversity here, for example, NAACP saying, where are the Blacks in senior Cabinet jobs?
How much pressure is Joe Biden under to name a more diverse — more diverse leaders in — to his team — for his team?
Mark Shields:
Well, I mean, the diversity so far, Judy, I mean, I don't think anybody can make the case that it's for diversity's sake. Everybody who's been chosen is somebody who qualified and is qualified for the position to which they were named, irrespective of race or gender or whatever.
I think that, as far as women is concerned, I mean, Joe Biden's campaign was run by Anita Dunn and Jen O'Malley Dillon, two women. I mean, he's used to having women. His sister Valerie ran all his other early campaigns for the Senate. So, that is — that's a natural. That's not window dressing. That's a very natural development.
I think that the most important voice to Joe Biden has to be that of Congressman Jim Clyburn. And Jim Clyburn has been critical of the paucity of African Americans in the Cabinet.
Joe Biden came crawling out of Iowa, limping out of New Hampshire. He was dead on arrival in South Carolina, until African American voters, led by — led by Jim Clyburn, endorsed him and made him the nominee. So, if he's going to heed any voice, the voice of Jim Clyburn is the voice that Joe Biden will be responsive to, and legitimately so.
Judy Woodruff:
And, David, how much pressure do you think Biden is under to name — get some more diverse figures in this Cabinet in top jobs? And how much does it matter?
David Brooks:
Well, pressure implies resistance. I don't think there's any resistance.
I think Joe Biden wants to have a diverse Cabinet. He wants to have a Cabinet that looks like America, in part because it's a better Cabinet idea. You have — the bigger diversity of viewpoints and backgrounds, the better decisions that get made.
And I don't think he will have any problem finding African Americans. He's already found Linda Thomas-Greenfield, who's the — his choice for the U.N. secretary — our ambassador to the U.N. And she's someone who has a long time career in the Foreign Service, somebody who ran the Africa desk under Obama. I'm sure he will find many more people under that.
I think it's important to have vast diversity. I hate to — when it gets reduced to a demographic label and a person is filling in a slot. The person is the person. And all the people he's picked so far and in the future are A-team. They're super talented.
And so I'd hate to see it get down — it appear, even appear like it's just because of somebody's skin color or anything, because I don't think it ever is going to be that.
Judy Woodruff:
Well, he's saying he's got more to name. He said you will know who they are in the next few weeks, and he said you can judge it then.
So, we will keep talking about it, keep looking at it.
Mark Shields:
Yes.
Judy Woodruff:
Thank you both, David Brooks, Mark Shields. Thank you.
Mark Shields:
Thanks, Judy.
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